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Mich. health exchange: The fight is not over yet

March 11, 2013

LANSING (AP) — Gov. Rick Snyder’s attempt for legislative approval of a new health insurance market in Michigan has been a 1 1/2-year odyssey — and it’s not over yet....

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(36)

Vauche

Mar-12-13 1:14 AM

Sixth, and I quote... "Thank you... for once again, pointing out the obvious."

Your welcome and thanks for finally agreeing with me. I know what I'm saying should be obvious yet most don't get it.

Big business is not a good or bad thing, it is a necessary thing. Government has no business mandating what people must buy, eat, drink or, what businesses must sell. People are ultimately responsible for the choices they make and how they make them and I personally don't want or feel I should have to pay for their poor choices.

Finally, to prevent the obvious arguements, I don't believe businesses can do no wrong as they have done plenty of reprehensible things. I also don't believe businesses should be unregulated to do whatever they please, however they please. But the reality is, businesses are in business to make money and if they can't do that here they will go elsewhere. If that happens where will we be then?

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Vauche

Mar-12-13 12:41 AM

Whiz,

First who said anything about not having business regulations?

Second, you and many others apparently do like mandates, you are arguing incessantly for them. Of course business men suffer from vanity and greed, duh. They have the confidence and believe in what they are doing. Everyone wants to be paid, so I guess we are all greedy in some manner.

Third, 1772. Really? That the best you can do? Things have changed. Some for the good, some for the bad. Yes, business can be ruthless, surprise!

Forth, buyer beware. Preaching to the choir here. I'm not the one thinking government needs to hold my hand and protect me from the mean business man. How about we stop blaming the business man and start blaming the less educated? Better yet, educate them, don't coddle them!

Fifth, niave? Describe what you are preaching. Government protect me from cradle to grave from the bussiness man. I can't figure out who's trying to screw me and who's trying to make a living.

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Whizzywhig

Mar-11-13 8:25 PM

Vauchie,

THANK YOU FOR THE COMPLEMENT!

For this,

we BOTH CAN AGREE,

"I AM, INDEED, A MOST FRUSTRATING INDIVIDUAL."

If for no other reason than to be contrarian because my past, and the history I can summon from memory...

Thank you...

for once again,

pointing out the obvious.

I rest my case!

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Whizzywhig

Mar-11-13 8:20 PM

Vauchie,

What you put in writing about big business, government, and the ‘buyer beware‘ philosophy, is immature, and naïve, to say the most.

Before statutory law, buyer’s had no express warranty ensuring the quality of a good or service.

The modern trend in the US, is one of implied warranty of fitness….

By their very nature contracts “giveth and taketh” away in the “fine print“,

and thus the reason why the U.S. congress of many lawyers are incapable of understanding the very legislation they concoct,

and must hire an army of interpreting lawyers to render their opinion on the concept of fitness or unintended consequences,

of the ’take-away’ provisions buried deep in the next chapter.

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Whizzywhig

Mar-11-13 8:18 PM

If……

you had a more than passing understanding of capitalism, entrepreneurship, fraud, scoundrels, and more fraud,

you would have to conclude, that the ‘buyer beware’, ’caveat emptor’ concept, is incomprehensible to most people as couched in the fine print terms of contracts, and other legal binding shenanigans put upon by the rich,

unto the less educated.

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Whizzywhig

Mar-11-13 8:17 PM

Your argument has little or zero basis in fact and in historical revelation of the operation of business and their unethical treatment of almost everything and everyone,

since the time of King Hammurabi’s Code, which set down in ancient times, on a Babylonian obelisk, the first essential formation of insurance, risk and loss casualty as pertains to responsibility and damage.

Hammurabi’s code dates from about 1772 BC,

consisted of 282 laws, as graded depending on social status, of slave vrsus free man,

more than which half dealt with the idea of contracts…

Should you decide to become better acquainted with your present thinking and historical precedence,

get yourself a basic education in economic, geographic, political, history and essential business entrepreneurial ethics thru time and history.

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Whizzywhig

Mar-11-13 8:16 PM

Vauche, no man likes mandates, especially from a government.

But, history has helped us to remember,

that everyone that wasn’t a ‘business-person’

suffered bitter lessons and repercussions from those who suffer no remorse or regret,

but businessmen do indeed, suffer from huge servings of vanity and greed.

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Whizzywhig

Mar-11-13 8:15 PM

Now…

this may be a big jump for you….

but, it bears repeating,

history has revealed the need for business regulation, if only, to save itself from “itself”.

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Vauche

Mar-11-13 7:02 PM

Frog, you mistake my dislike of government mandates for a defense of insurance companies. I think they are all theives myself.

We differ in this, I don't believe it's the governments job to tell the insurance company what they will or will not pay for. State they must have a defined, unambiguous definition of coverage fine. Tell them they must cover X, Y, and Z no way.

Secondly, it isn't the governements job to make sure you understand the differences, that's yours. Seek help when needed fine there's plenty of it out there.

The funny thing is you all fight for this government defined insurance when the worst abuser of everything you mention is the government run insurances Medicaid and Medicare. Repleate with redundancy and stupidity and yet there's a mass of folks screaming for more. I don't get it.

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Vauche

Mar-11-13 6:41 PM

Whiz, you are a frustrating individual. I certainly hope you calling me names makes you feel good.

I'm convinced you know less about economics and what makes the world go around than my 7 year old daughter.

Big greedy companies hire a lot of people and create the need for smaller businesses in a community who hire more which in turn creates demand for the smaller still customer service business. Yes, pay decreases as you go down because profits decrease as you go down the ladder. Now take away the top, what do you think is going to happen? Think bankruptcy of GM for a Michigan example. How many ancillary part companies went belly up. How many people lost jobs because the big greedy company couldn't make money?

Bleeding hearts are wonderful and compassion is great. Both are easier with other peoples money.

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frogleggs

Mar-11-13 6:35 PM

Vauche,

Understand, if you will, that healthcare insurance providers, must have a DEFINED basic insurance coverage plan.

In order to comparison shop, buyers need to understand, definitively, what they are shopping for.

Insurance companies, have a long history of deceit, fraud, and ambiguity, and were severely attacked by the populace for this practice.

Hence, the need to understand the difference between apples, oranges, pears, and cauliflowers!

In the absence of standardization, who better to define a basic starting point?

Not the companies themselves,

history is replete with their cheating the public.

Whatever you want to envision, we the public, have been putting up with insurance foolishness for far too long,

and, they have yet to make anything clearer than mud, given the years they have had in the business.

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frogleggs

Mar-11-13 6:33 PM

Insurance companies, like any business, love shell-games!

Who should insist these money making schmucks tow the line?

Who?

Someone for the ‘common-good’, that’s who!

And the same who,

that provides for the national defense, etc.,

is the only entity to have the clout and hammer to swage these charlatans into line.

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frogleggs

Mar-11-13 6:03 PM

whizzywig,

Better give it a rest.

You're dealing with a wit.

Half, dim and nit,

all the product of inbreading.

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Vauche

Mar-11-13 6:02 PM

Frog, absolutely I'm all for being able to "shop" for insurance. Interstate insurance would be great for competition and lowering prices.

I'm not for mandates on all! The requirement to have to buy something. I'm not for the government telling private corporations what their insurance policies have to contain/cover.

Who will pay? The same dang people who pay now! That's the point. This changes nothing except increasing the price of premiums. You and I will still pay for those that can't afford health insurance, up to 90% of premiums if I remember the numbers. So, you and I still pay for those who can't AND our own premiums go up. Is that a good thing?

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Whizzywhig

Mar-11-13 5:58 PM

Perplexed:

“Please take into account that the Republican party is completely under the control of the lunatic fringe.”

========

Vauchee,

You are adept at cut-and-paste,

but not so in comprehension or reading, or re-reading or….

My rant clearly illustrated who/what the republican party represents and where they get their poltics:

greed!

Read.

Read..

and

and then if you don't succeed...

Re-read...

If at first you don’t understand.

then it is:

ADD!

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Vauche

Mar-11-13 5:45 PM

"Most importantly, the rich, their corporations, and their paid hired hands in government carry out their wanton aggression over the have-not’s." - Yes truly not a conspiracy theory!

"These “lunatic fringe” are a very LARGE, well organized, well financed group of people, effectively and with a generally, accurately portrayed sweep of the brush, are the rich, their corporations, and business types who in the main are represented by the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, and, more recently, by a group of secretive people, The American Legislative Exchange Council, (ALEC), and not so secretive, Citizens United, the Tea Party, and many, many under-the-radar, privately financed groups of special-interest, tax-exempt corporations, all lobbying OUR ELECTED OFFICIALS, (REPUBLICAN LEGISLATORS" - again no conspiracy theory here, oh yeah no implication of association between "Lunatic Fringe" and republicans.

I can comprehend, you do make it difficult.

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frogleggs

Mar-11-13 5:41 PM

Vauche

Are you against the ability to ‘shop’ for insurance.

Most of the rich, be they republicans or democrats, are none the less rich, and would have you tied to their non-competitive price and plan competition, after all, having to compete in the market place is expensive versus, take it or leave, pricing!

Clearly, medical costs will never go down.

Who, will pay for healthcare?

Everyone that pay’s for the uninsured today, either has insurance, or pay’s exorbitant healthcare charges to defray the costs incurred by providers for non-paying healthcare recipients.

You can understand, healthcare providers, businesses, either for profit or not, will not stand in line to pay for anyone that cannot afford medical care.

Vauche,

How will anyone but the rich, be able to afford healthcare?

Everyone, that isn't rich, should have the ability today to receive medical care.

What is your solution?

Nothing so far from you.

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Whizzywhig

Mar-11-13 4:58 PM

Voochie,

The whole idea is that the two-party system is dysfunctional, a factual presentation.

My rant is nothing about conspiracy,

but your mouth is spouting that,

the presented rant is based on empirical evidence and not rationalization.

Look up the meanings.

Most importantly, the rich, their corporations, and their paid hired hands in government carry out their wanton aggression over the have-not’s.

Bring yourself to understanding plutocracy, oligarchy, the rich, the electoral college and then when you are able to comment with this understanding, I will consider talking to you in debate.

Until then, you’re out of your league.

Grow Up!

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Whizzywhig

Mar-11-13 4:57 PM

Better learn how to read.

Better learn how to comprehend.

NOWHERE DID I STATE ANYTHING ABOUT THE LUNATIC REPUBLICAN FRINGE, I quoted the other fellow.

RE-READ.

Perhaps you have ADD,

unable to make transitions or understand sentences longer than four words.

I don’t pretend to be gifted in understand learning disabilities

or ignorance, both of which you display.

Further,

Poochie, doochie, voochie, whatever...

DON’T CALL ME ‘MY FRIEND’

I am choosey,

about associating with known ignoramuses.

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Vauche

Mar-11-13 4:34 PM

Further, you can make a list filled with big governement dems and liberal progressive too. You preach of the rich and the republicans yet you fail to consider that even democrats or liberals aren't going to let you keep your money either. Dems and libs want your money just the same only difference is they want to spend it their way.

Is freedom really big government and massive regulations in your book? Is freedom really the nanny-state? Has any form of wealth redistribution ever brought someone out of poverty, anywhere? Do you honestly believe if the rich get less you will have more?

In terms of this health care, you will NOT have more, you will actually get less. Sure the rich won't have their cadillac plans but niether will anyone. You see another way to think about share the wealth is bringing everyone down to the least common denominator. Nobody moves up yet many move down and the proverbial gap is closed. That's what you want right?

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Vauche

Mar-11-13 4:10 PM

Whizzy, 80 years? You should be smarter. Conspiracy theories everywhere and you have the audacity to claim the republicans are lead by a "lunatic fringe". My friend there isn't any more lunacy or fringe than the stuff you're spouting. It's incomprehensible.

You ever had the thought that this massive government health care overhaul is a bad, bad, bad peice of legislation? You ever thought about how much it is going to cost? You ever thought about who is going to pay for it? You ever thought about what it will mean for quality of health care? I'm talking quality not quantity here.

The answer, NO you haven't! Why? Because you're so busy trying to figure out how you've been screwed, who's doing the fictitious screwing that you can't logically conclude adding 30 million plus people into the health care system is going to cost a whole lot of money.

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Whizzywhig

Mar-11-13 3:06 PM

This is not as much to do about communists, or communism,

but more importantly,

the growing divide between the

‘have’s and the

‘have-nots.’

The ‘have’s’ are increasing their share of wealth faster and

more disproportionately in modern times,

while the middle class is shrinking, and the poor

are increasing at larger rates and increasing numbers.

If,

you are an American,

a person who must work for an hourly wage,

then,

this is for YOU!

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Whizzywhig

Mar-11-13 3:04 PM

HERE IS ANOTHER

-AS SOME QUICKLY launch into their ignorant rant…

-more of the same old c.r.a.p. and

-some have said

-“stfu”,

some say I’m smarter,

-TRUE,

80 years of life experience is my mentor,

and the desire to not quit bleating about facts,

until my final breathe.

BUT FACING REALITY,

-IS NOT IN THEIR INTEREST.

SO - to those who would say these things

-DON’T GO ANY FURTHER,

-DON’T READ THIS C.R.A.P.

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Whizzywhig

Mar-11-13 3:03 PM

Perplexed,

to a point, you are correct in what you say about only voting for those who financed these republican campaigns, and

seated republicans in seats of representation

which

should have been seats of REPRESENTATION of

ALL PEOPLE,

NOT,

just the rich,

their corporations

the plutocracy,

the oligarchy,

and

their tax break interests.

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Whizzywhig

Mar-11-13 3:02 PM

Perplexed,

your Quote:

“Please take into account that the Republican party is completely under the control of the lunatic fringe.”

“LUNATIC FRINGE”

to say there is Lunatic Fringe, is misleading at best.

At worst, it implies there are only a ‘few’ who are ‘lunatic’s’ fueling this misrepresentation.

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